"Mansion in Heaven" Christian ForumAnswers
Jan 17, 2015 - 10:57 PM
A pre-tribulation rapture is quite preferable to believe as noone wants to suffer persecution and tribulation, but where in God's word does He guarantee that we will not face persecution or tribulation?
Does not scripture reveal that Jesus suffered persecution and tribulation, as well as Paul and all of the other 11 disciples of Jesus who were all martyred except for John? And even John suffered persecution and tribulation in that they tried to boil him to death in oil and sentenced him to hard labor and imprisonment on the isle of Patmos.
In fact, Jesus told us that we would should expect to face such things:
Joh 15:18-20 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. (19) If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. (20) Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Joh 16:1-4 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. (2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. (3) And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. (4) But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Christians all over the world in many countries are persecuted and martyred, and we in the US hold to a doctrine that God is going to sweep us away and keep us from this same tribulation. It is especially easy to believe this with the vast majority of end time preachers preaching and teaching that we will be swept away by the rapture and avoid this tribulation, but that is not the picture that Jesus paints as He described the end of times as I pointed out in my long post in the previous thread.
I was raised believing in a pre-trib rapture and believed this for most of my life hearing it taught over and over, but after I learned to meditate and search the scriptures myself and allow the Holy Spirit to confirm or deny the truth to me, I began to see a different picture in the scriptures.
I believe it won't be long before many Christians have a rude awakening and notice that they were not raptured when they thought they were supposed to be and turn to be scoffers as Peter points out:
2Pe 3:3-4 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
In addition to this, my pastor has taught several sermons on the end times teaching these same things as I pointed out in the previous thread.
If you choose to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, you better make sure that you are prepared for whatever may come provided it does not occur when you expect it to.
Jan 18, 2015 - 12:51 AM
To be more specific, I actually believe in the pre, and mid trib rapture. No, not saying that I think there are 2 raptures, but that the rapture will happen either before, or half-way through the tribulation. I have read and heard sermons on both, and both makes perfect sense. This is why when it really gets down to it, I just know it will happen. As for when, we will find out one day for sure. Whether while we are here on earth, or with Him already when it happens, we will know.
The reason for this post is just my thoughts for the reasons for the anti-Christ rising to power. It's just a thought, nothing more. I have really never shared this thought with others, and decided why not here. Like, "If the pre-trib rapture is the case, this could be what would happen".
As for the rapture itself, I don't see it as a "saving from persecution", rather the saving from God's Wrath being poured out upon the earth. I mean, God would be pouring His Wrath to punish those who rejected Him. Since His Childen has not rejected Him, why would He pour out His Wrath on those who belongs to Him?
Looking at it this way, it seems logical that the rapture would not happen until after the rise of the anti-Christ. God's wrath, unless I'm mistaken, will not begin to be poured out until after the 3 1/2 years of the anti-Christ's peace treaty.
Whether Jesus comes before or after the rise of the anti-Christ to me is not as important to know, but that He will come like a thief in the night, just as He said He would.
I recently heard someone say that the "great falling away" referrred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 will happen because the rapture does not happen when they believe it should have happened. And because of that, many will turn thier backs on God, not believing Him. That kind of makes sense. But then I look around, and I see that many have been falling away for quite a few years already.
I'm sorry that I haven't provided scriptures in reference to what I am stating here, but this is because it isn't my intention, in this post, to defend or defute the timing of the rapture, just thoughts as what could be possible. I chose a long time ago not to be firm in a belief in either one because both "arguements" seems logical to me. The only "arguement" that doesn't seem logical to me is those who claims the rapture will not happen or all. Oh, and the post-trib. But the post-trib thoughts is because I so rarely see or hear people talking about it. In this post, I'm just putting my thoughts down in simple terms, because they are just thoughts, nothing more. Or at least that is my intention.
Jan 18, 2015 - 04:09 AM
Shirley bought something up that more defines of what I firmly believe. I have always been very hesitant on claiming in a "pre-trib" or "mid-trib" Rapture, because I have read verses that confirms both. And I can see both sides. But what Shirley did bring up is what I do beleive in, a "Pre-WRATH" Rapture. In my response to her, I mentioned that I actually can see 'us' being here when the anti-Christ takes his seat, and even during the one world government. But I cannot see 'us' here while God is pouring His Wrath upon the earth.
As for this question, it is more about what "could be" a possible reason that would throw the world into a one world government than it is about the timing of the rapture.
Jan 18, 2015 - 04:16 AM
Jan 18, 2015 - 05:27 AM
Jan 18, 2015 - 06:58 AM
I believe what was throwing me off what the title, "Mid-Trib", and "Pre-Trib". If the phrase "Pre-Wrath" and "Mid-Wrath" would be used, I believe that it would be more appropiate. I continue to think that the Great Tribulation is not what God is saving people from (those that are still alive), rather it is His Wrath that He is going to save them from.
Jan 19, 2015 - 02:33 PM
The anti-christ has already taken his seat, do you not see who he is? He sits in the temple (your body), claiming that he is a god (free will), and claiming that he has control over his salvation (free choice). The anti-christ is anti-God, it is against God, and Romans tells you that our carnal mind is anti-christ, it is against God. Your carnal mind is the anti-christ. But do not worry, for you will still be saved.
Do you not know that we all must go through the tribulation (Deu 4:30) Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:21 that THEN shall be great tribulation…, but he goes on to say that if this time be not shortened, then even the elect will not survive it. This means that even the elect will go through it. So you should at least see that we all go through the tribulation. This is confirmed in Romans 5:3 (2 Cor 7:4 and more) when we are told that we are to glory in our tribulations.
This is why I deny the rapture in its current form, for the rapture is escapism at its core.
God brings His wrath upon those who are disobedient (Eph 5:6; Col 3:6), and in case you have not noticed it, none of us are obedient to his laws. For sin is the transgression of the law, and we are all in sin, therefore we must all face the wrath of God.
What is disobedience to God? It is not hearing the voice of God for yourselves. For the law of the New Covenant is Faith, and the definition of Faith is to hear God’s voice. This is how God is going to save us, we are saved by grace through faith. This means that we are saved by hearing Him speak to us. When God speaks to us, there will be no turning back. When God speaks to us, we will follow Him, we will obey Him, we will become righteous in His eyes. But currently we do not hear His voice, there is a drought in the land, a drought of hearing His word. This is also called a famine in scripture, and in Amos 8:11 it tells us of this famine.
The wrath of God is not a permanent punishment which will hurt us. Yes, the carnal mind will not like His wrath, therefore none of us will like His wrath at this time, for we are all carnal. However, the wrath of God is remedial, it is redemptive, it is error correcting. It is the same as a father spanking his child to bring that child into obedience. Does the child like or even understand why they are being punished? No, but the punishment is done out of love, for our God is a God of love. The punishment is done to bring the individual into obedience to God.
The God of hate, the God of being mad at the world, the God of eternal and never ending punishment is a doctrine of the carnal mind, a doctrine of the denominational system, it is not God. God will speak to all of us at the appointed time. God will leave the 99 and seek out the lost soul (sheep). He will not stop until He has completed the restitution of creation, the restitution of all things (Acts 3:21).
So, in your question about when tribulation will happen at what point in the rapture, I believe that you are getting yourself worked up over nothing. But if you must believe in a rapture, then Post-tribulation it must be, for all of us will go through the tribulation. And if any will not go through the tribulation, then they will not enter into the kingdom of God.
Blessings
Jan 20, 2015 - 09:16 PM
God is also perfectly righteous, just, holy, and sovereign, to name a few, and His love does not contradict or violate any other attribute.
That said, for those who chose to reject Jesus, God allows them to choose their eternal destiny in eternal torment. He already did all He could do to rescue them by giving them an option to not remain condemned to perish. It was Adam that condemned mankind, not God.
When you take God at His word, you cannot, using His word, say that eternal hell or the lake of fire will only be for a season or period of time.
Over and over, it is referred to as eternal; otherwise, why care about saving people from it if it is not forever?
Source:
Jan 21, 2015 - 12:01 PM
Texan,
First, I need to refute the idea that something terrible (the rapture) has to happen in order for a One World Government to take place.
The Laws are already here, they are slowly being enforced. It is only a matter of time before they will be fully enforced.
The world has already been divided into 10 sections.
Our troops are already wearing UN badges here in our own country.
Did you know that from our border, N,S,E,&W, 100 miles inland, as of Jan this year, people no longer have the 4th amendment right? It's called the Constitution-Free Zone"
That means ALL of Florida, most of the NE States, over half of Texas, and other states.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgURaBnS8C0
It's just a matter of time before no one will have a 4th amendment right "for reasons of National Security" of course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnMDXj6Nkzk
The Obama Care laws call for RFDI chip for medical conditions, under the sole discretion of Doctors.
HR 4872 (Reconciliation Bill, Approved by the Supreme Court, this was done after revisions) Section 2521 Reads
(g)(1) The Secretary shall establish a National Medical Device Registry to facilitate analysis of post market outcomes data on each device that--
(A) is or has been used in or on a patient; and
(B) is
(i) a class III device
(ii)a class II device that is INPLANTABLE, life-supporting, or life sustaining.
The NWO will have full support from Churches that teach more than one ways of Salvation;
I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is Babylon, or at least the Woman who Rides the Beast.
The Catholic Church started Islam. Mohammed first wife was a Catholic sent out as a missionary with full funding from the Catholic Church. The Church's goal was to bring the Arabs into the mother church. When his wife died... Mohammed was left with her funds. His first followers were paid mercenaries with Catholic funds. They killed to further their funds and new religion. Islam today still venerates Mary. If you take a statue of Mary through Iraq, the Muslims will fall down and worship it. The Qur'an has an entire chapter dedicated to Mary.
The last Dogma Issued by the Catholic Church was in the late 20th (1994 I think) century. (A Dogma is something Rome venerates as a Mortal sin if you do not agree with their teachings.) This Dogma states that anyone can go to heaven, no matter their beliefs. Hindu, Muslim, etc.However, if you disagree worth this dogma, you have committed a mortal sin, and if you don't confess a mortal sin, then the church deems you anathema (cursed). In other words, if Islam agrees to this dogma, they are untouched and blessed by the Mother Church. We however, who say that there is only one way to eternal life, through the blood of Jesus (Rev 1:5), will be considered anathema.
I hope you see the significance in this. If Islam believes in beheading, and the Catholic Church now supports Islam, then Islam has the blessings of the Mother Church.
The mediocre modern churches (like Joel Olsteens) that teach there are many ways to get to heaven, will follow along with the majority, just as they are doing now.
The World Government is slowly taking Christians out of the way. Right now Satan is biding his time and working through a theme called "TOLERANCE". People are being fined, and imprisoned for their godly lifestyle choices. (ex. a photographer who refuses to photograph sodomy (homosexuals). And the churches who should be preaching the truth are silent for fear of offending someone.
We are in a period called the "Falling Away".
I don't believe this means "people leaving the church", but rather people in general in rebellion against God. Not to many years ago, people respected God, even if they didn't want a relationship with Him. People respected Morals and clung to right and wrong.
However, today people are rejecting right, and good... what common sense tells them is right.
example:
https://answersingenesis.org/sanctity-of-life/human-trafficking/
So the point in all this is to say;
A circumstance doesn't need to take place in order for the NWO to gain control. It's happening now.
The other thing that needs to be fully refuted is the idea that the Rapture will cause many deaths. I don't believe that the Bible teaches this.
I will have respond to this later...
Jan 21, 2015 - 02:27 PM
I appreciate your input. And I see your point. The reason why mentioned about deaths is due to the fact I doubt seriously that all saved pilots will be grounded and all drivers of all vehicles will be parked and all conductors of trains will be stopped when the Rapture happens. If that was to happen, the production of this world would cease, and I cannot see that happening. That would also mean that Jesus would warn us just prior to His return to xxxx us away. So, if for example, a person who is driving a vehicle is taken up according to His Word, that vehicle would continue to move, but without a driver. Or a saved person flying a single engine private plane gets taken up would leave the plane flying without a pilot, and end up going down. The crashes would cause deaths.
As for the "contitutional free zones", from what I found, the following is what is not covered under the constitution. BTW, information which I never knew, thank you for sharing it.
https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-governments-100-mile-border-zone-map
Sorry about the site that I got it from, it popped up on the search when I searched it, and didn't realize it until after I clicked on it. I'm not one of thier fans, not even a little.
Jan 21, 2015 - 07:37 PM
Yes, I can see why you think that the Rapture would cause many deaths, but I am looking at this purely from a Scripture point of view.
Before I can refute the idea that the Rapture will cause many deaths, I must explain an Important part of what We Post-Tribulationist / Pre-Wrathers believe.
I understand that you probably agree with me on some points, but I want to go into some details for others who may be reading.
First, I have never met a Post-Tribulationist that believes that we will face the Wrath of God.
Second, We believe that the Scriptures plainly teach that the Tribulation and the Wrath of God are TWO separate events.
The simplicity of the Scriptures speak for themselves:
Everyone who believes in the Rapture all agree on one point, Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12 match, they are the same event when the sun and moon shall be darkened and stars will fall from the heaven .
Matt 24:29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven..."
Rev 6:12,16 "...and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars fell unto the earth.."...
"And the kings of the earth...great men...rich men...chief captains...mighty men...and EVERY Bond man...and EVERY Free Man (That's Everyone!), hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains...fall on us and hide us from the Face of HIM (God)... and from the Wrath of the Lamb: For the Great DAY of His Wrath has Come; and who shall be able to hide" (Rev 6:15-17)
The Sequence=
Matthew24:29= After the Tribulation -> Sun and Moon darkened
Rev 6:12,16 = Sun and Moon Darkened -> The Great Day of His Wrath.
To further prove that God's Wrath and Tribulation are Two Separate Events, let us look to the Scriptures for the meaning of Tribulation.
The word tribulation is mentioned 25 times.
2 Thessalonians Chapter 1 is a great starting Point
4 "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
So here we see the basic meaning of Tribulation, which is trouble.
In context of Rev 6 and Matt 24 prior to the sun and moon darkened, who do we see causing trouble?? The anti-Christ is causing tribulation during this period, not God.
Here are some more verses concerning tribulation.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in ME ye might have peace. In the world ye SHALL have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Romans 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Tribulation for the Unbeliever:
Romans 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Again, in Rev 6 & Matt 24 prior to the sun and moon darkened, we find that Satan and other Evil Men are causing tribulation to the saints. At this point, we can safely say that the Tribulation Period is NOT God's Wrath. (also see mark 13:24, Luke 21:25,28).
Jan 21, 2015 - 08:22 PM
When the Rapture happens,
1st- The One World Govt.will already be in place. (see above post for that explanation).
Christians will already be either incarcerated or in work camps. They will be given jobs like farming.
2nd- When the Wrath of God begins, possibly no one will be able to die right away. People will try to commit suicide but fail.
The Wrath of God begins Just as Our Lord Raptures HIS Church.
Either God will prevent many accidents or Christians will not be entrusted to drive, operate machinery or the like. Matthew 24:20-22. The flight here in v.20 is speaking of when the Christians will be rounded up to be killed. (Also see Mark 13:11-19, which gives great detail of this event)
"And the kings of the earth...great men...rich men...chief captains...mighty men...and EVERY Bond man...and EVERY Free Man (That's Everyone!), hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains...fall on us and hide us from the Face of HIM (God)... and from the Wrath of the Lamb: For the Great DAY of His Wrath has Come; and who shall be able to hide" (Rev 6:15-17)
Revelation 9:6
"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. "
When Christ was last seen leaving this earth, "...HE was taken up; and a cloud received HIM out of their sight...behold, two men stood in white apparel...Which...said...this same Jesus, which was taken up from you into heaven, shall come in like manner as ye have seen..." (Acts1:9-12)
The very next reappearance of Christ mentioned in the Bible is Rev 1:7
"Behold, HE cometh with the clouds; and EVERY eye shall see HIM, and they also which pierced HIM: and ALL kindreds of the earth shall wail because of HIM. .even so.Amen."
Does not Rev 1:7 and 6:15-17 match perfectly?
While there will be deaths because of the events, I see people not afraid because of the Chaos/ Accidents around them, but purely because they know that God's Wrath upon them.
Jan 23, 2015 - 09:40 PM
I see a problem with your theory...
At the end Rev 6 where they say "the great day of His wrath is come" is men saying this and not God. Also, God's wrath does not start to get released on the earth until the 7 vials of His wrath are poured out in Rev 16.
Furthermore, Rev 14 says that Christ comes on the clouds and harvests the earth (raptures the church) after the last trump and before the first vial of wrath, which fits more perfectly with many other passages.
Another point, you say that you hold to the pre-wrath, post tribulation view, yet the tribulation period is not fully ended until God's wrath has been fully poured out. This tells me that your label is not really correct and would better be labeled as pre-wrath, mid-tribulation. Of course it is merely semantics...
Jan 24, 2015 - 08:38 AM
In regard to the discussion in the "comments" section above (under heavykevy’s answer beginning with "Yes, God is love ..."), here are some passages from the Bible that specifically talk about everlasting punishment and torment:
-- Matthew 25:31-46:
Verses 31-33: "When the Son of man [Jesus] shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."
Verses 34-40: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand [born-again Christians], Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom [heaven] prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
Verses 41-45: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand [unsaved sinners], Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire [the lake of fire], prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."
Verse 46: "And these [unsaved people] shall go away into everlasting punishment [in the lake of fire]: but the righteous [born-again Christians] into life eternal [in heaven]."
-- Revelation 14:9-11:
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
-- Revelation 20:13-15:
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
In addition to the above verses, I highly recommend Albert Barnes’ commentary on Matthew 25:46. To read it, click on the link ( http://www.godvine.com/bible/matthew/... ) and scroll down to "Barnes’ Notes on Matthew 25:46."
P.S. For anyone reading this who wants to know how to get your name written in the book of life, please read one or all of my gospel tracts or some of the other ones in the "Printable Gospel Tracts" section of my website. Here's the link: http://www.mansioninheaven.com/PrintableGospelTracts.html.
Jan 24, 2015 - 11:48 PM
Heavy,
I see your point.
While the people of the earth are the ones in Rev 6:17 saying;
"The Day of HIS WRATH is Come and who shall be able to stand?"
, it appears that all the inhabitants of the earth will know about HIS Great Day when it gets here. I believe in these last days, the warnings of HIS Day to come will be preached once again.
All the OT books seem to agree with Rev 6.
1.Sun and Moon darkened,
begins on the same day as
2. The Day of the LORD.
Isaiah 13:6,9-13
Howl ye for the day of the Lord is at hand;
It shall come as a destruction from the Almighty...
Behold, the Day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and HE shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
For the STARS of Heaven and the Constellations shall not give her light: the SUN shall be Darkened...and the Moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Joel 2:10,11
...the SUN and the moon shall be dark...for the DAY of the LORD is Great and Terrible; and who can abide it?
This passage mirrors "The Day of HIS Wrath is Come and who shall be able to stand?" Rev 6:17)
Joel 2:31 The Sun shall be turned into darkness, and the Moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD.
Acts 2:19 mirrors this passage
1 Thess 5 also warns us of the Day of the Lord.
"But ye brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief"
For God hath not appointed us unto Wrath, but to obtain Salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
I Thess 1:10 "...Jesus...which delivered us from the Wrath to come"
Also see Amos 5:18-20
Zeph 1:14-16 "A day of the Trumpet..." (Which is the beginning of the Trumpets of Revelation, that's another topic, but I just wanted to show you where the Trumphets begin)
Matt 24:29 "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven..."
Rev 6:12,16 "...and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars fell unto the earth.."...
While you may think that we disagree on quite a bit, I believe we agree on more than you may think.
The Tribulation (The Seals)
Then the Rapture of the Church (The Sixth Seal )
The The Day of the Lord (Seventh Seal which is the beginning of God's Wrath
After the Seals, The Trumphets and Vials are blown and poured out at the same time.
1st trumpet goes with 1st Vial
2nd Trumpet goes with 2 Vial
and so forth
Because we believe that the Trumpets and the Vials go together, it would fit the book of Revelation together somewhat like this:
Ch1-5 1 century a.d matches Ch 12 1st
Ch 6 Tribulation matches ch 13
Ch 7 Rapture matches 14 & 15
Ch 8-11 Wrath of God Matches Ch 16
Ch 17-18 Babylon
Ch 19 Armageddon
Ch 20 White Throne
Ch 21-22 New Heaven & Earth
But in all this, I want you to see a point, the Tribulation ENDS before God's Wrath Begins.
All the Books are in one accord
Sun & Moon Darkened>
Then the Day of the LORD / God's Wrath Begins
Do I pretend to understand all this perfectly, not yet. But if God Wills, I will understand. Right now I'm trying to stay away from the old habits of pre-programed thoughts and let the Scriptures teach me.
BTW, Where in the Scriptures can you show me that the Tribulation last 7 years? Can you please show me where that entire period is called the Tribulation??
Jan 25, 2015 - 08:13 AM
No one has it all figured out yet, but the closer we get, the more light is shed on these things and the more we learn about it...
I attributed the entire final seven years as the tribulation because that is how I have always heard it referred to. The word tribulation is not really used that often in the Bible, so I see your point, however based on the meaning, it still fits the entire period in that God's wrath will certainly be a time of great tribulation for those suffering through it. I get my understanding of there being a final 7 years from the 70th week of Daniel. The Son of Perdition making the 7 year peace treaty with Israel will be the beginning of the final 7 years before Jesus comes and sets up His 1000 year kindgdom as described near the end of Revelation.
I get my understanding of the end times primarily from what Jesus said on the subject, what Paul added, what I see in Revelation and how these all match up together with each other and with Daniel's prophecies of the end.
It seems more difficult to piece together where other Old Testament passages fall in the scheme of things
Also, I don't agree with the trumpets being parallel with or to the vials of wrath, they both appear to be sequential and the trumpets are mentioned before the vials of wrath.
Another thing, I see the term "coming on the clouds" occurring in many places identifying the rapture.
Dan 7:13, Mat 24:30 & 26:64, Mar 13:26 & 14:62, 1 Thes 4:17, Rev 1:7 & 14:14.
If you read the Mat 24 and Mar 13, they give a good sequence of events.
And if the last trump has to happen before the rapture and the final wrath of God in the Vials is poured out afterwards, then they cannot be parallel...
I just listened to a sermon that you may find very helpful.
2011-08-07 Except Those Days Be Shortened MP3
Jan 25, 2015 - 10:20 AM
"And if the last trump has to happen before the rapture and the final wrath of God in the Vials is poured out afterwards, then they cannot be parallel..."
First, I have never said this. The Trumpets don't even begin until after the Rapture.
You Said,
"Another thing, I see the term "coming on the clouds" occurring in many places identifying the rapture.
Dan 7:13, Mat 24:30 & 26:64, Mar 13:26 & 14:62, 1 Thes 4:17, Rev 1:7 & 14:14.
If you read the Mat 24 and Mar 13, they give a good sequence of events."
Exactly, and in most of these passages, it's AFTER the tribulation. If God does not appoint His children to Wrath, then it makes perfect sense that we are raptured just after te tribulation. Tribulation does not mean God's Wrath. Please see the above post on the verses i gave on what "Tribulation" is.
I don't see any complications beteen the OT & NT anymore.
If you will allow the possibility of the 7 yr period to be split into two peices, Tribulation, then God's Wrath, you will find eyerything fitting together like a perfect puzzle.
Hold on, I have more to show you.
Jan 25, 2015 - 12:50 PM
You said " The Trumpets don't even begin until after the Rapture."
So if Paul says that it is at the last trump that those who are alive and remain are changed and raptured, then there will be no more trumpets...
That tells me that the trumpets must occur before the rapture.
Jan 26, 2015 - 12:28 AM
Yes the Rapture is at the Last Trump, but 1st trumphet blown in Revelation is not the same as Last Trump in 1 Corinth 15:52.
This may be rather lengthy. I will try to shorten my answer as much as possible. I have never tried to write down or explain this before. The answer is simple, but yet not so simple to explain. I will post as soon as I get it finished.
Jan 27, 2015 - 12:17 AM
The Tribulation from a Pre-Wrath Position
(Needed to understand next post on 1 Corinth 15:51-52, 1 Thess4:15 & Matt 24:31 (The Last Trump)
All I am going to list is mostly Rev Ch 6, Matthew 24, and Mark 13 and Luke 21. I am not skipping important verses, they all match up and are presented in the same order.
(Texan thanks for that link on 'It's Supertnatural') That preacher said someting I never saw before)
Please notice that throughout the Bible, when God pours out HIS Wrath, HE sends forth HIS Angels to execute Judgment (Think: Sodom & Gomorha). In Revelation, the Trumpets and Vials being poured out upon the earth are done by angels. The seals of Rev 6, that we call the tribulation period, have no angels...and that makes perfect sense if you believe that this period is NOT God's Wrath.
THE FIRST SEAL - The Anti- Christ
Revelation 6 :1-2 A counterfeit (Satan) on a White Horse. The beginning of Tribulation (1,260 days)
"...a white horse, and he that sat on him...went forth conquering, and to conquer,"
This is what I believe to be the Anti-Christ. Satan will come with deception making most people THINK that he is Jesus Christ fulfilling Rev.19:11. Just like counterfeit money, Satan will look like the real thing, only his texture will be different. Just as he deceived Eve by quoting the scriptures and adding one little word ("not") to God's word, so will he deceive and trick people into thinking that they are taking the Mark of God that the 144,000 witnesses of the tribes of Israel will have IN their foreheads(Rev. 7:3).
Matthew 24
v.3 The disciples ask Jesus "what is the sign of thy coming? and of the end of the world?"
v.4 Take heed that no man deceive you.
v.5 For many shall come saying that I am Christ.(The first Seal)
Luke 21:8, Mark 13:5,6
"Take heed that ye (all) be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ..."
THE SECOND SEAL--- WAR
Rev. 6:2,3
"... power was given to him (the one on the horse)...to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another.
Matthew 24:6,7
"And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars...For nation shall rise up against nation..."
Luke 21:9,10 Mark 13:7-8
"And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars...Nation shall rise up against nation..."
THE THIRD SEAL - Famine
Rev 6:6
"A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny..."(A days wage for a meal)
Matthew 24:7
"...there shall be famines..."
Luke21:11, Mark 13:8
,"...and famines...'
THE FOURTH SEAL-- A Pale Horse
Rev 6:8
"...behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword...hunger...death, and with the beast of the earth."
Now many translations read 'Green Horse', However this is wrong, Green is always associated with life in the Bible, never death. The original meaning of 'Pale' is having a deathly green hue (English, Latin Ainsworth's Dict. 1624). The King James Bible gets it right here by translating it 'pale'.
Matthew 24:9,15
"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you..."
Luke 21:16, 20 , Mark 13:9-12
"...ye shall be betrayed...some of you shall they cause to be put to death..."
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies...the desolation thereof is nigh (here).
THE FIFTH SEAL - The Slain - The GREAT Tribulation (45 days) Daniel 12:13,14
Rev 6:9-10
"I saw the...souls of them which were slain for the Word of God...saying... How long (till you) avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" and it was said unto them..."rest yet a little season...until (your) fellow servants should be killed as they were..."
These verses only prove the rapture hasn't happened yet, we know this because they are still slain and are told to wait.
Matthew 24:21
"For then shall there be great tribulation...And except those days be shortened, there should No flesh be saved: But for the ELECT's sake..."
This verse also proves the Rapture has not yet occurred. The Elect have not yet been gathered.
Luke 21:24, Mark 13:20
"And they shall fall by the sword..."
2 Thess 1-4
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR Gathering Together unto Him, That ye be not...troubled...as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall Not come, (until)...that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..."
Up to this point, in all these correlating verses above, what do we see happening? Is God pouring out HIS Wrath? or is Satan, the anti-christ, the key player of the percution of the saints?
THE SIXTH SEAL- The Sun and Moon are Darkened
Rev.6:12 (Marks of the End of Tribulation, The Rapture, then the Beginning of God's Wrath)
"There was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair and the moon became as blood."
Matthew 24:29-30
29 "Immediately After the Tribulation...shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light"
30 "And THEN...they shall SEE the Son of man coming in the Clouds..."
Luke 21:25, Mark 13:24-27
21."And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon..."
25 "And THEN shall they see the Son of Man coming in the Clouds...then look up!...for your Redemption draweth nigh."
1 Thess 4:16
For the Lord Himself shall Descend From Heaven With a Shout...and the dead in Christ will rise first: then we which are alive and remain (those who survive the great tribulation) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the Air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord!"
THE FIG TREE
At this point in Mattew Jesus begins to tell us a story of a Fig Tree
Why would HE do this in a narritave of the End of the World ?
Matthew 24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree;...
Mark 13:28
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; ...
Luke 21:29
And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree...
Revelation 6:13
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a FIG Tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Now begins the WRATH of GOD poured out upon the Earth.
Rev 6:17 (1335 Days, Daniel 12:11-13 from beginning of Tribulation to Rapture, Read Carefully to determine at Daniels Lot is in v.13)
"For the great day of His Wrath IS Come; and who shall be able to stand.
We See the CHURCH IN Revelation Ch.7
v.1 "And AFTER THESE THINGS (Chapter 6) ..."
(AFTER the marking of the 144,000, comes the first mention of an innumerable number in heaven;)
v 9 I beheld...a great multitude, which no man could number, of ALL nations, and kindreds and people..."
v.13 An Elder asks where this multitude comes from?
14. "These are they which came out of the great tribulation..."
This is clearly speaking of the Raptured people. If this were a second rapture at this point,( a rapture of the people out of the tribulation), would not these people be a countable number? But, because the Rapture happens after the tribulation, it makes sense that the number would be uncountable since the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air 2 Thess 2), resulting in a very innumerable number.
Also, this Rapture is the Mid-Point of Daniels 70th week, when the Lord tells Daniel his time or "lot" (resurrection) will come Daniel 12:11-13.
Jan 27, 2015 - 01:40 AM
Understanding 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
First, we have Paul showing (revealing) to the Corinthians a Mystery:
Paul tells them
"at the Last Trump, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, " 1 Corinth 15:51-52
Since Paul is showing them a mystery, he's not telling them about something that hasn't been written yet (Revelation). He's telling them about something they would have already been familiar with. In other words, you don't show someone how to solve a puzzle until you have all the pieces. So Paul is not talking above the Corinthians heads in something that hasn't been written about yet (the 7 trumpets of God's Wrath).
With this in mind, we are forced to look elsewhere for an understanding of the Last Trump in 1 Corinth. What better place to look than where the Corinthians would have been very familiar: The OT Laws.
I believe we all agree here that the OT laws are a foreshadowing of NT fulfillment (Col 2:16)
Jesus said, "I am not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill"
also see (Heb 9:8-12) All the OT feast, rituals and such were figurative of something greater which already are. Ex. Moses was given the specifications of the cherubim's in heaven and made likeness according to God's commands.
There were 7 OT feast that the children of Israel were to keep. (Lev 23)
The Spring Feast (The True Beginning of a calendar year is in the Spring, about March)
(For sake of space, I will minimize details & leave you to study each Feast more.)
Deut 16:16 "Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD".So here is the reason families made their pilgrimage to Jerusalem 3 times per year.
1st Feast - The Passover -14th day, 1st month (Lev 23:5)
Fulfilled 1Corinth 5:7
Ex 12:1-28 gives the instructions for choosing a spotless first year male Lamb for Passover, chosen on the 10th day of the month.
Jesus fulfilled this Feast by becoming that spotless lamb, Jesus was presented on the 10th day of the 1st month, riding into Jerusalem on a colt for the sacrifice.
John said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world." John knew that the Feast were to be fulfilled.
We don't need to sacrifice a Passover lamb, Jesus is our Passover Lamb.
2nd Feast -The Feast of Unleavened Bread - 15th day of the same month (Lev 23:6, Ex 17:17-20)
Fulfilled - 1 Corinth 5:8
3rd Feast- First Fruits of Harvest (Lev 23:9)
Fulfilled -1 Corinth 15:23-24
I Corinth 15:20- 23
"But now is Christ Risen from the dead and become the firstfruits...Christ the firstfruits, Afterward they that are Christ's at HIS Coming.
Then cometh the END, when HE shall deliver up the kingdom to GOD"
These Verses are Important, because they establish an order in the Resurrection
1.Christ the Firstfruits
2. Afterward those that are Christ's at His coming (1st Resurrection, Rapture)
3. Then the End (2nd Resurrection, People who are saved after the Rapture & during the 1000 yr Reign)
I am not sure if any of these in the second Resurrection will have an earthly death.
Salvation is completely based upon HIS Works, it's not something we could ever do. It was this feast also where Christ fulfills the Sabbath.
4th Feast - The Feast of Weeks (Day of Pentecost) (Lev23:23-22)
Acts 2:1 ,41 The first day we see a massive group of people get saved since Christ's Ascension. This is a day when we see the reaping of a harvest of unleavened bread.
The First Four Spring Feast were fulfilled.
We even find that they were fulfilled on the exact day as commanded of God in the OT.
*Jesus was supposed to be sacrificed on the 14th, it happened on the 14th .
*The 15th was the Unleavened Bread, the 7th day was the Sabbath Day, HE rose again after that Sabbath, which was the firstfruits of that particular year.
*Add 50 days to this and we arrive to the Pentecost.
SO what three feast are yet to be fulfilled?
The Three Fall Harvest Feast (Lev23:22)
Jesus said; "The Harvest is the END of the World."Matthew 13:39
(at this point, it would be very helpul to understand Rev 6, Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, please see my post above this one)
5th Feast - Blowing of Trumpets (Lev 23:24-25)
"In the Seventh Month, in the First Day... shall ye have a Sabbath...ye shall do no work"
Nu. 29:1 "...it is a day of Blowing of Trumpets"
Numbers 29:1
Nu 10:9 ...if ye go to war in your land against an enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an Alarm with the TRUMPETS, and ye shall be remembered before the Lord your God, and ye shall be saved. Also see Nu 31:6.
So here comes the blowing of Trumpets, Announcing the coming of the next Feast, the Day of Atonement (Rapture)
Not sure if the trumpets blown is us calling out to God during the Great Tribulation for 10 days, which may explain Rev 2:10
Regardless, in Luke 21:14-19 we see great persecution from the anti-christ, and the only way to escape it is to call upon the Lord and let HIM speak for you; "For I will give you a mouth and wisdom.." (v15)
(Not sure if I have placed this Feast in the right place)
6th Feast - The Day of Atonement/ Year of Jubilee (Lev 23:24-32, 25:8) is the Rapture
Daniel 9:27 marks the seventieth week, or 7 years period in which the anti-christ sets up his kingdom against God.
Daniel 12:11-13
"And From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,
and the abomination of desolation that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."
"Blessed is he... that cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. "
But go thou thy way (Daniel) till the END be; for thou salt rest,
and Stand in thy LOT until the END of the days."
So Daniel died and is asleep, his soul is in heaven, but is body is asleep in the dust of the earth until the End of The Days. What days? The days in the previous verse 1,335 days.(Which is Midpoint of the seventieth week, 45 days after the 1,290 days, which makes the 45 day difference The Great Tribulation)
After the great tribulation has begun, when war is declared upon the saints (Matt24:21), the antichrist will set up the Abomination of Desolation at the Midpoint of the seventieth week. This is exactly when the blowing of Trumpet is to take place.
Lev 25:8 "Then thou shalt cause the Trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in The Day of Atonement shall ye make the Trumpet (singular) sound throughout all your land."
"On the tenth Day of the same month...ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath (Lev 23)
Mark 13:19
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Summary of the Last Trump (Fulfillment of the Sixth Feast)
We are in great affliction, and the Sabbath (Jesus) is our Rest.
He will Rapture us out of that Great Tribulation (affliction) at the Last Trump Sounding when this Feast is Fulfilled.
10 days after the midpoint of the Hebrew year, the Day of Atonement takes place.
The 10th day of the 7th month corresponds exactly with 1,335th day of Daniel's 70th week.
The Rapture is the Last Trump for us. The Feast of the LORD belong to God and His People.
A different Trumpet of God's Wrath is blown for the inibitants o the world. Which will sound after the Rapture.Those Trumphets are numbered from 1 to seven and they belong to the people who have denied our Lord.
7th Feast is the Feast of Tabernacles (Lev 23:34-43)
Rev 21:3
"The Tabernacle of God is With men, and HE will Dwell with them and they shall be HIS people"
Lev 23:40
"And ye shall take on the first day ...branches of palm trees... and Rejoice before the Lord your God seven days."
Rev 7:9
This the first time in heaven we see a "Great Multitude, which no man could number...stood before the throne...with PALMS in their hands "
So, I hope all this has made sense. I can go into further detail with calculations & Scripture if need be. This is a bit new to me and I am positive I need to research this more. But with that, I am also certain that I' m on the right track. So if any one would like to research & add more. Please do so.
Jan 27, 2015 - 02:39 AM
did you read what I posted in the Question "Pre-Trib/Mid-Trib/Post-Trib or no rapture"?
http://mansioninheaven.answerbase.com...
I thought about posting it here, but I decided to just provide a link.
There are at least 3 issues I see with what you have written off the top of my head.
The 'pale' horse vs the 'green' horse. The word is Chloros in the Greek and the word from which we get Chlorophyl which as I am sure you know is green. Besides that, there is a parallel passage in the Old Testament of 4 horses having the colors White, Red, Black and Mottled and bay. Research has shown me that bay refers to a green bay tree. I believe that the translators chose pale because they could not image a natural horse of the color green as it does not occur in nature. However, I am certain that this supposed to be correctly translated as green.
Furthermore, John said of the book of Revelation that these things were things that must shortly come to pass. Putting all of Revelation at the end of time causes it to not be shortly coming to pass. That is partly why I believe the first 4 or 5 seals have already been opened as I described in what I posted.
Also note that, the 4th beast of the 7th Chapter of Daniel has striking resemblance to the beast of Revelation 13.
Notice in Rev 19:10 and in Rev 22:9 where John goes to bow down before an angel and the "angel" says "See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book:"
You can see that the "angel" referred to in Rev 21:9 continues talking with John til 22:9. If the 7 "angels" pouring out the wrath are not angels but our brethren, the prophets, then the angels that blew the trumpets could very well also be prophets meaning that the last trump can very well be pointing to the 7th trump of Rev 11 as I pointed out in what I posted. Perhaps I need to go back and fill in what I posted showing how parallel passages match up with the full sequence of events...
Jan 29, 2015 - 12:31 AM
Heavy,
I read you post on Revelation. I have some thoughts concerning John's angel in my head, but Scripture needs to confirm it before I can believe it to be truth. I need to study more, and will get back with you. Reguardless that does not negate my explaination of 1 Corinth 15:51. I still believe that the Last Trump is the Fulfillment of the 6th Feast of Leviticus 23.
However:
I strongly disagree with your interpretation of the Pale Horse in Rev 6:8.
Research has shown nothing of the kind. True research should be established within the bounds of the Bible.
Scripture must be interpreted with Scripture.
Isaiah 28:13
"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go,
and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."
Corinth 1 ".... In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."
Greek dictionaries are not the authority here.
I have thoroughly researched this myself. It's not the first time the word 'Pale Horse' in Rev 6:8 as been attacked. As you say, many preachers say that since "chlorous" means "green", this represents Islam. The problem is they are giving you only HALF the Greek definition, which is "green pasture" or "green grass". I guess it would seem odd to call Islam "Green Pastures", kinda would place Green Pastures in the Psalm 23 passage. Ouch...
I'm not knockin you Heavy, but I am knockin the so-called scholars who think they know more than the KJB translators, John Wycliffe, Luther , and most, if not all Latin, Gothic, German and Ethiopian Bible translators to boot...because most, if not all say 'PALE'. (With the exception of modern so-called translations, of course.)
To my knowledge, only the Greek uses 'Chloros' and that definition is given to us by modern dictionaries written by men who believed and commonly wrote about the so-called inaccuracies in God's Word. Just read the introduction to a Scofield Study Bible to get their view of why they alone had a "perfected text". And while your at it, be sure to research the 'scholars' listed in his introduction. One was even pedophile!!. These 'gentlemen' are of the majority who played the dominant roles in the Greek Dictionaries that we use today!
I refuse to put my trust in modern dictionaries to interpret a dead language (Greek). God promised to preserve HIS Words to all peoples, HE did not promise to preserve languages...or dictionaries. Psalm 12:6-7.
In the Bible, 'green' is associated with life, never death. Look it up.
PALE IN THE BIBLE
Jeremiah Chapter 30
4 And these [are] the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into PALENESS?
7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Isaiah Chapter 29
20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
22 Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
So I let the Scriptures interpret "PALE" and I come out with "sickly" and "lacking normal color". Hmm , sounds exactly like Jer 30 fits the description of Rev 6.
So, please go back and read my summary of Rev 6.
Notice the basic english, time-order words that the Bible uses in these chapters. Notice "AFTER" the Tribulation is when the angels harvest the crop.
... and Yes I would very much like to see your coresponding verses from book to book.
Jan 29, 2015 - 02:13 AM
I would also like to point out that my understanding of the color of the horses didn't come from modern translations or dictionaries, but from a wealth of other information that has more and more exposed how that Islam will be where the "anti-christ" comes from. Unfortunately, I cannot remember where all of the information came from as it was many sources and over a period of years.
One sermon that comes to mind by my own pastor was "How to Conquer a Nation." In this sermon he lays out the strategy of Islam for conquering nations and if I remember correctly cited information about how Islam is taking over England, Germany, France and how they are trying to do the same in the US. Another soure of information about Islam has been Wallid Shoebat, and though many seem to want to discredit him, I have studied out things that he teaches about Islam in the Bible and have found that the vast majority of it is true.
Here is the text I was referring to with the four horses:
Zec 6:1-3 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass. (2) In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; (3) And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
And a passage that seems to indicate that the bay horses could be green:
ps 37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree
Finally, When I put Daniel with the Olivet discourse teachings of Jesus with the teachings of Paul and line these up with Revelation I find what you have laid out to be contradictory in places. It could take me a while, but I will try and fill in what I wrote with more details and side-by-side scripture so as to be more complete.
Jan 29, 2015 - 03:52 AM
Sorry, but I'm not intrested in your pastor. I openly minded listened to two of his sermons. He changes the Word of God. He'll say "Well, in te Greek it means..."
No thanks.
Jan 29, 2015 - 04:08 AM
I find that He preaches pure truth according to what the Holy Spirit shows him in scripture.
He sometimes goes to the Greek and uses it to show the full meaning of a verse in that it was written in Greek, and when he does so he uses some of the most complete source material available for explaining the Greek.
He also is the dean of Grace Ministries International Bible College. So his resource material is some of the best available. In fact as far as I have heard it is no longer in print...
Any way, his credentials don't mean anything if he is not being taught by God the Holy Spirit and I find that he most certainly is being taught by God.
Of course you must make up your own mind who you will listen to, but as for me, I find I am well fed with Pastor Jim and that I am highly unlikely to be fed any false doctrine.
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