"Mansion in Heaven" Christian ForumAnswers
Jan 08, 2015 - 05:15 PM
I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture also. I believe that we are living in what is called the “church age” right now, and the church age began on the day of Pentecost and it will end when Jesus Christ comes for His church and removes them from this earth.
I Thessalonians 1:10 reads “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
When I read where it says “which delivered us” from the wrath to come, it seems as though He has already done this. However, when I read it in the Greek text, it is written in future tense.
I believe the phrase “wrath to come” is referring to the Tribulation Period. When I look at Revelation 6:17, it says “For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Christians will not go into the Tribulation period. What would be the purpose for us being here? Some might say that we are going to be here to witness to people. Really? If people are not going to believe our testimony now, why would they believe it during the tribulation. God is bringing tribulation down on an unbelieving world. We won’t be here.
Christians will no longer have a function on this earth during the tribulation period. God will not leave us here to witness to an unbelieving world. We should be doing that now, as His Spirit leads us, and only as His Spirit leads us.
There will be people that will get saved during the tribulation, but it won’t be because we here witnessing to them. From what I read, the scripture tell me that God already has it worked out as far as witnesses during the tribulation.
In the book of Revelation in Chapter 7, it says that there are 144,000 Jews. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel that are sealed by God so that they cannot be killed and no one can harm them. They are Jewish believers and they will be evangelists during the tribulation period, 144,000.
Secondly, there will be an angel flying in mid-heaven, according to Revelation Chapter 14, Verses 6 and 7. It says that this angel will flying in mid-heaven for 3 ½ years. That’s going to be one busy angel. Poor guy doesn’t even get to sleep, rest, or anything for 3 ½ years.
And Revelation tells us that this angel reaches every single person on the earth with the gospel, everybody! So again I have to ask, what does God need us here for?
And thirdly, in Revelation Chapter 11, Verses 3 to 13, there are two witnesses that are witnessing
in the streets of Jerusalem and the whole world sees them. Did you catch that “The whole world sees them.” The whole world sees these two witnesses. God does not need us here to witness. He’s already got it covered! Our technology today makes that possible.
During the tribulation period, there are 144,000 believing Jews, there is an angel flying in mid-heaven that reaches every single person over a three-day half year period. And there are two witnesses that are witnessing in the streets of Jerusalem in Revelation 11:3 to 13.
After the rapture of the church takes place, every single person that is alive on this earth will be reached. God Himself will fulfill that promise.
Jan 08, 2015 - 08:33 PM
The Tribulation in my opinion is life on earth, for life on earth is about our training. For we are under tutors and governors until the appointed time of the Father (Galatians 4:2) (KJV Please) God’s wrath is not about punishment, it is about corrections in our thought process. God causes wrath for our learning, for our correction. “He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy” (Job 37:13). We see in Proverbs 3:11 that “My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction”: (Proverbs 3:11)
In Isaiah 45:7 we read in part “for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness”. (Isaiah 26:9) We see God’s thought pattern when He says “Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die”. (Proverbs 23:13)
The problem is that we are not learning, we do not get it. Our leaders (pastors) have led us astray and are blinded to the truth. For we read in Jeremiah 2:30 “In vain have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion”. (Jeremiah 2:30)
What we should be doing is seeking the Lord for correct understanding on our own. We should not seek this knowledge from man, for man is corrupt, we should not seek it from pastors, or priest, or even the Pope, for they know nothing, “For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed”. (Isaiah 9:16). But we should seek God for instruction “Teach me thy way, O Lord, and lead me in a plain path, because of mine enemies”. (Psalm 27:11) For “Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O Lord, and teachest him out of thy law”; (Psalm 94:12)
We ignore all these scriptures, we say in our heart, “Oh that is not us!” Yet it is us indeed, for we do not seek the truth, we seek the comfort of the tickling of the ear. We must learn from our Father in heaven “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God”. (Romans 12:2)
This is my answer to the tribulation, it is for the righteous as well as the wicked, for we all sin, we are all wicked (Jeremiah 17:9). Until we admit this to ourselves we will not learn, for we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Yet we believe that just because we are believers we are righteous in the eye of God.
How foolish to think this, For even the devil believes (James 2:19). It takes more than a belief to become righteous, yet we have not been taught any of this. In prophetic scripture a women is the church, and a strange women is the false church. Read Proverbs 5:1-15 which says…
1 My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding:
2 That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge.
3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:
4 But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.
5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
6 Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them.
7 Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth.
8 Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house:
9 Lest thou give thine honour unto others, and thy years unto the cruel:
10 Lest strangers be filled with thy wealth; and thy labours be in the house of a stranger;
11 And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed,
12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;
13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me!
14 I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly.
15 Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.
We do not obey our God, we hide from Him. We are to listen to God directly for our knowledge, we are to drink waters from our own cistern. Proverbs is all about the false churches, all the denominational churches. Only chapter 31 speaks of the true church.
We are not saved from wrath, we are saved through wrath. We do not run from it, we seek it for our correction. We do not fear evil, we fear God only, for God is the power behind the evil, for there is no power but of God (Romans 13:1)
T4J
Do not fear the wrath of God, for it will surly come upon you, but embrace it as a child who is being corrected by their parent, by their FATHER. Just as children do not like being corrected by their parents we do not like being corrected by our God. Your salvation is assured, for God will bring all of His children into His kingdom, this is why we labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, SPECIALLY of those who believe. These things command and teach (1 Timothy 4:10-11).
Drop to your knees and seek God’s spirit only, seek the knowledge of the spirit of God within you, for it is there. We just have never been taught that this is what we are to do. God is not mad at you, He is not mad at anyone, for He is the one who made you the way you are, He loves you. Seek His council, seek His truth, not mine, or anyone else’s, for we are only men.
But until you start getting answers from Him, feel free to keep asking…. Just do not believe in what I (or anyone else) says without the spirit within you agreeing to it.
Blessings
PS Hope I used enough scripture quotes for you.
I do not beieve in the rapture, it is from the mouth of the strange women.
Jan 09, 2015 - 11:35 AM
I realize this post will be VERY long, but I decided to include the scripture passages any way because there are so many of them.
A major problem in discussing this topic is that most Christians haven't really studied this out in order to know, and blindly accept what the majority of the preachers are saying.
Having very thoroughly studied it out, I can say with great certainty that the options Post Trib and No Trib are contradictory to scripture.
Also, in discussing this topic, there are a lot more scriptures that must be taken into account than just Revelation... Jesus Himself had much to say about the end times and the season when His disciples would be harvested from the Earth. Consider the parable of the Wheat and Tares:
Matt 13:24-30, the parable of the wheat and tares is about the end times and appears to be about the rapture, the explanation found in 37-43 contains the following:
Mat 13:39-42 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
and
Mat 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, (50) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Another passage where Jesus talks about the end is in Luke where Jesus tells his disciples that the end times will be like in the days of Noah and Lot:
Luk 17:20-37 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: (21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (22) And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. (23) And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. (24) For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. (25) But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. (26) And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. (27) They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (28) Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; (29) But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. (30) Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. (31) In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. (32) Remember Lot's wife. (33) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. (34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (37) And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
and Jesus also mentions the days of Noah in Matt 24:37 .
Again Jesus had much to say about the end times in the parallel passages in Matt 24 and Mark 13:
Mat 24:4-51 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (8) All these are the beginning of sorrows. (9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: (18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. (19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (25) Behold, I have told you before. (26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. (27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. (29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: (33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. (34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. (44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (45) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? (46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. (47) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. (48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; (49) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; (50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, (51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mar 13:5-37 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: (6) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (7) And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. (8) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. (9) But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. (10) And the gospel must first be published among all nations. (11) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. (12) Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. (13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (15) And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: (16) And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. (17) But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (18) And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. (19) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. (20) And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. (21) And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: (22) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (23) But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. (24) But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (28) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: (29) So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. (30) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. (31) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. (32) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (33) Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. (34) For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. (35) Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: (36) Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. (37) And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
Finally, Jesus also referred to the end times in Luke 21 in the parable of the fig tree:
Luk 21:29-33 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; (30) When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. (31) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. (32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. (33) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
I would like to point out that the fig tree is representative of Israel. When Jesus mentioned the fig tree in the aforementioned passages and the generation that won't pass away, I believe He is referring to the generation that was born when Israel became a nation again. This tells me that the end times are rapidly approaching.
Next, I present to you the passages that refer to the rapture:
1Th 4:14-5:4 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1) But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. (2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (4) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
2Th 2:1-10 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
1Co 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Next two more passages that hint at the timing of the rapture:
Jas 5:4-7 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. (5) Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. (6) Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you. (7) Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
2Pe 3:8-12 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
In these passages we are told that God is LONGSUFFERING and very patient in waiting so that more can be saved.
Now, I would like to turn your attention to Revelation... In 1:1, it says "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." The book of Revelation was a glimpse into the future but much of the book is not about the tribulation period. In fact it is difficult to pinpoint exactly when the great tribulation begins in Revelation. It is my understanding that the Great Tribulation starts when the "Anti-christ" enters into a 7 year peace treaty with Israel as mentioned in Daniel:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
This passage tells us that not only does he make the peace treaty, but also commits the abomination of desolation after 3 and a half years. Take note that 3.5 years is significant and is mentioned many times and many ways in Revelation. 42 Months, 1760 days, a time times and half a time are equated with 3.5 years.
With that in mind I see that John began to see the future unfold in chapter 6 with the opening of the 7 seals. It is my understanding that the WHITE horse is representative of Catholicism white being the official color and the description fitting with the crusades. The RED horse represents Socialism or Communism as in Red Russia, or Red China, and the description fits in that many Socialist leaders murdered many of their people and they have great military might (the big sword). The Black horse represents Capitalism which fits the description of trading and the stock market. And finally the PALE horse is mistranslated. chloros where we get our word chlorophyl should have been translated GREEN, so the GREEN horse is Islam, or the Muslim religion. And though the word does not end in 'ism' it is an ism like the others in that it is much more than just a religion. There is a lot I could say about Islam, but I will limit it to the fact that their chosen color is green.
It is my opinion that we are at either the 5th or 6th seal currently today. The sixth seal appears to refer to something like a nuclear war.
That said, when is the rapture supposed to occur?
based on all of the scripture presented so far, I see that it will occur after the abomination of desolation which occurs after the midpoint of the Great Tribulation. I gather this from Matt 24, Mark 13, and 2 Thessalonians and other places. In 2 places the trump of God is mentioned and in 1 Corinthians 15 it specifies that it will be at the last trump. I see In Revelation that 7 seals are followed by 7 trumpets, and finally 7 vials. If the 7th trump (chapter 11:15) is the last trump, then the rapture must be after chapter 11 according to the previous information I have presented. This fits with God being longsuffering and waiting, and with what Jesus said about Noah and Lot how that God saved each of them at the very last moment just before the judgement of His wrath occurred giving those people as much time to repent as He could.
Now, I would like to refresh your memory with the parable of the Wheat and Tares from Mat 13:
the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
and
49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, (50) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
And now read from Revelation 14:
Rev 14:14-19 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (17) And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. (18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. (19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
I would also like to point out that God's wrath has not yet been poured out as God's wrath is all poured out with the 7 vials.
Finally, the church is often referred to as the mystery in the New Testament. Consider Revelation 10 just before the 7th trump is sounded:
Rev 10:6-7 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: (7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
If you take everything I have written here and review it thoroughly and reread Revelation a few times through I don't see how you could come up with any other conclusion except that the rapture will be some time after the midpoint of the tribulation and likely much closer to the end than the middle.
A major problem in discussing this topic is that most Christians haven't really studied this out in order to know, and blindly accept what the majority of the preachers are saying.
Having very thoroughly studied it out, I can say with great certainty that the options Post Trib and No Trib are contradictory to scripture.
Also, in discussing this topic, there are a lot more scriptures that must be taken into account than just Revelation... Jesus Himself had much to say about the end times and the season when His disciples would be harvested from the Earth. Consider the parable of the Wheat and Tares:
Matt 13:24-30, the parable of the wheat and tares is about the end times and appears to be about the rapture, the explanation found in 37-43 contains the following:
Mat 13:39-42 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
and
Mat 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, (50) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Another passage where Jesus talks about the end is in Luke where Jesus tells his disciples that the end times will be like in the days of Noah and Lot:
Luk 17:20-37 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: (21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (22) And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. (23) And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. (24) For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. (25) But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. (26) And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. (27) They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (28) Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; (29) But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. (30) Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. (31) In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. (32) Remember Lot's wife. (33) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. (34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (37) And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
and Jesus also mentions the days of Noah in Matt 24:37 .
Again Jesus had much to say about the end times in the parallel passages in Matt 24 and Mark 13:
Mat 24:4-51 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (8) All these are the beginning of sorrows. (9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: (18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. (19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (25) Behold, I have told you before. (26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. (27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. (29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: (33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. (34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. (44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (45) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? (46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. (47) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. (48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; (49) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; (50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, (51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mar 13:5-37 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: (6) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (7) And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. (8) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. (9) But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. (10) And the gospel must first be published among all nations. (11) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. (12) Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. (13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (15) And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: (16) And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. (17) But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (18) And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. (19) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. (20) And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. (21) And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: (22) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (23) But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. (24) But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (28) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: (29) So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. (30) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. (31) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. (32) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (33) Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. (34) For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. (35) Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: (36) Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. (37) And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
Finally, Jesus also referred to the end times in Luke 21 in the parable of the fig tree:
Luk 21:29-33 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; (30) When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. (31) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. (32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. (33) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
I would like to point out that the fig tree is representative of Israel. When Jesus mentioned the fig tree in the aforementioned passages and the generation that won't pass away, I believe He is referring to the generation that was born when Israel became a nation again. This tells me that the end times are rapidly approaching.
Next, I present to you the passages that refer to the rapture:
1Th 4:14-5:4 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1) But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. (2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (4) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
2Th 2:1-10 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
1Co 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Next two more passages that hint at the timing of the rapture:
Jas 5:4-7 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. (5) Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. (6) Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you. (7) Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
2Pe 3:8-12 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
In these passages we are told that God is LONGSUFFERING and very patient in waiting so that more can be saved.
Now, I would like to turn your attention to Revelation... In 1:1, it says "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." The book of Revelation was a glimpse into the future but much of the book is not about the tribulation period. In fact it is difficult to pinpoint exactly when the great tribulation begins in Revelation. It is my understanding that the Great Tribulation starts when the "Anti-christ" enters into a 7 year peace treaty with Israel as mentioned in Daniel:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
This passage tells us that not only does he make the peace treaty, but also commits the abomination of desolation after 3 and a half years. Take note that 3.5 years is significant and is mentioned many times and many ways in Revelation. 42 Months, 1760 days, a time times and half a time are equated with 3.5 years.
With that in mind I see that John began to see the future unfold in chapter 6 with the opening of the 7 seals. It is my understanding that the WHITE horse is representative of Catholicism white being the official color and the description fitting with the crusades. The RED horse represents Socialism or Communism as in Red Russia, or Red China, and the description fits in that many Socialist leaders murdered many of their people and they have great military might (the big sword). The Black horse represents Capitalism which fits the description of trading and the stock market. And finally the PALE horse is mistranslated. chloros where we get our word chlorophyl should have been translated GREEN, so the GREEN horse is Islam, or the Muslim religion. And though the word does not end in 'ism' it is an ism like the others in that it is much more than just a religion. There is a lot I could say about Islam, but I will limit it to the fact that their chosen color is green.
It is my opinion that we are at either the 5th or 6th seal currently today. The sixth seal appears to refer to something like a nuclear war.
That said, when is the rapture supposed to occur?
based on all of the scripture presented so far, I see that it will occur after the abomination of desolation which occurs after the midpoint of the Great Tribulation. I gather this from Matt 24, Mark 13, and 2 Thessalonians and other places. In 2 places the trump of God is mentioned and in 1 Corinthians 15 it specifies that it will be at the last trump. I see In Revelation that 7 seals are followed by 7 trumpets, and finally 7 vials. If the 7th trump (chapter 11:15) is the last trump, then the rapture must be after chapter 11 according to the previous information I have presented. This fits with God being longsuffering and waiting, and with what Jesus said about Noah and Lot how that God saved each of them at the very last moment just before the judgement of His wrath occurred giving those people as much time to repent as He could.
Now, I would like to refresh your memory with the parable of the Wheat and Tares from Mat 13:
the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
and
49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, (50) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
And now read from Revelation 14:
Rev 14:14-19 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (17) And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. (18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. (19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
I would also like to point out that God's wrath has not yet been poured out as God's wrath is all poured out with the 7 vials.
Finally, the church is often referred to as the mystery in the New Testament. Consider Revelation 10 just before the 7th trump is sounded:
Rev 10:6-7 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: (7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
If you take everything I have written here and review it thoroughly and reread Revelation a few times through I don't see how you could come up with any other conclusion except that the rapture will be some time after the midpoint of the tribulation and likely much closer to the end than the middle.
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