"Mansion in Heaven" Christian ForumAnswers
Jan 15, 2015 - 02:45 AM
Ok, scratch that, I went ahead and research it out. Unless anyone would like to answer, refute, or add to my conclusion.
God's Elect
I know that Israel is referred to as the Elect in the OT. But so are Christians in the NT. I AM NOT negating that. I say the Scripture teach that Both are the Elect.
We are adopted.
The word "Elect" is listed 27 times in Scripture (this includes the word "Election"
ELECT in the OT
Only 4 times in the book of Isaiah (42:1, 45:4, 65:9, 65:22) is the word "elect" used.
1. Isaiah 42:1
"Behold my SERVANT, whom I uphold; mine ELECT, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon HIM: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."
This passage in context with v.1-8) is being very specific. The "servant" in this passage is Christ, "mine elect".
So the "elect" in this passage is singular. It's not referring to people, but to Christ Alone.
If we are Christ's and Abraham's seed as Galations 3:29 teaches, then is it not logical that we are the seed of Christ as well. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Matthew 3:3) If Christ is The ELECT, then as HIS children, we (no matter who you were before) would be His Election.
2. Isaiah 45:4 Is specifically referring Israel.
3. In Isaiah 65, God is speaking of the New Heavens and the New Earth (65:17). This New Heaven and New Earth will contain "mine elect". So the question arises. Will Christians be a part of the New Heavens and New Earth if they are not part of the "elect"?
Gentiles are called the ELECT in the NT.
Jews are called the Elect in the NT.
The Church is called the Elect in the NT
4.
Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
5.
In 1 Thess 1:1-6, Paul opens his letter "unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ". Paul greets this mixed church of Gentiles and Jews (Acts 17:1-4) with "grace" and "peace", giving "thanks to God"..."Remembering without ceasing your work of faith..labor of love...patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ...knowing Brethren Beloved, Your ELECTION of God..
And ye became followers of us and of the Lord..."
6.
Peter too makes the same distinction as Paul. (1Peter 1:1-2)
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the Strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, and Bythynia,
ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
I am not too sure about the other cities, but Galatia was a Roman Providence founded by the Gauls, therefore the Galatians were predominately former Gentiles.
7. 1 Peter 5:13
"The CHURCH that is at Babylon, ELECTED Together with YOU, saluteth you..."
Babylon had a large Jewish population, so I believe that the "you" would be referring I Peter 1:1.
So Peter is addressing the Jews and Gentiles alike as being the "Elect" and "Elected Together".
8. And in 2 John 1,
John refers to the church as the "elect lady" in verses 1&13. (Some dispute that the "lady" in these verses refer to the church).
Conclusion:
The Church (Jew or Gentile) is the"elect" as well as the OT saints?
God's Elect
I know that Israel is referred to as the Elect in the OT. But so are Christians in the NT. I AM NOT negating that. I say the Scripture teach that Both are the Elect.
We are adopted.
The word "Elect" is listed 27 times in Scripture (this includes the word "Election"
ELECT in the OT
Only 4 times in the book of Isaiah (42:1, 45:4, 65:9, 65:22) is the word "elect" used.
1. Isaiah 42:1
"Behold my SERVANT, whom I uphold; mine ELECT, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon HIM: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."
This passage in context with v.1-8) is being very specific. The "servant" in this passage is Christ, "mine elect".
So the "elect" in this passage is singular. It's not referring to people, but to Christ Alone.
If we are Christ's and Abraham's seed as Galations 3:29 teaches, then is it not logical that we are the seed of Christ as well. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Matthew 3:3) If Christ is The ELECT, then as HIS children, we (no matter who you were before) would be His Election.
2. Isaiah 45:4 Is specifically referring Israel.
3. In Isaiah 65, God is speaking of the New Heavens and the New Earth (65:17). This New Heaven and New Earth will contain "mine elect". So the question arises. Will Christians be a part of the New Heavens and New Earth if they are not part of the "elect"?
Gentiles are called the ELECT in the NT.
Jews are called the Elect in the NT.
The Church is called the Elect in the NT
4.
Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
5.
In 1 Thess 1:1-6, Paul opens his letter "unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ". Paul greets this mixed church of Gentiles and Jews (Acts 17:1-4) with "grace" and "peace", giving "thanks to God"..."Remembering without ceasing your work of faith..labor of love...patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ...knowing Brethren Beloved, Your ELECTION of God..
And ye became followers of us and of the Lord..."
6.
Peter too makes the same distinction as Paul. (1Peter 1:1-2)
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the Strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, and Bythynia,
ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
I am not too sure about the other cities, but Galatia was a Roman Providence founded by the Gauls, therefore the Galatians were predominately former Gentiles.
7. 1 Peter 5:13
"The CHURCH that is at Babylon, ELECTED Together with YOU, saluteth you..."
Babylon had a large Jewish population, so I believe that the "you" would be referring I Peter 1:1.
So Peter is addressing the Jews and Gentiles alike as being the "Elect" and "Elected Together".
8. And in 2 John 1,
John refers to the church as the "elect lady" in verses 1&13. (Some dispute that the "lady" in these verses refer to the church).
Conclusion:
The Church (Jew or Gentile) is the"elect" as well as the OT saints?
Jan 16, 2015 - 06:09 AM
There are also verses that suggest that the born again church is spiritual Israel.
Of course this is not very popular and many get upset if you mention it, but Paul the apostle said it first...
Of course this is not very popular and many get upset if you mention it, but Paul the apostle said it first...
Jan 17, 2015 - 11:50 AM
That would be Eph ch 2. All this is so new to me heavy. I read a passage and miss so much all these years. God makes everything so simple, yet we complicate everything with man made doctrines. Why can't we just read a passage and believe it for what it says? I find myself on the outskirts of accepted theology and shunned for believing outside of the popular commentaries. Anyway, thanks. God bless
Source:
Jan 17, 2015 - 11:22 PM
Ephesians 2 alludes to it, as well as Galatians 3, Romans 2:25-29, Romans 9, 10, & 11.
Saints is another word that I used to believe applied to only a select few, but discovered in scripture refers to all born again children of God.
Perhaps you need to be finding a better church that holds more closely to what the Bible really says... I find that there are many doctrines that most of the church teaches contrary to God's word.
A couple of great churches you may want to check out include:
Grace Ministries International at jmmgrace.com
and
The Family Prayer Center of Tulsa OK at daveroberson.org
Saints is another word that I used to believe applied to only a select few, but discovered in scripture refers to all born again children of God.
Perhaps you need to be finding a better church that holds more closely to what the Bible really says... I find that there are many doctrines that most of the church teaches contrary to God's word.
A couple of great churches you may want to check out include:
Grace Ministries International at jmmgrace.com
and
The Family Prayer Center of Tulsa OK at daveroberson.org
Jan 18, 2015 - 09:57 PM
Furthermore, in 1 Peter 2:9, Peter also says this while quoting from Exodus 19:5-6.
Jan 19, 2015 - 12:09 PM
All looks good to me. Let me add my two cents.
I believe that there are two groups who are the elect. The first group is the ancient Israelites who were called out of Egypt. This is the first group called out by God. The second group is the body of Christ. In my mind there is a distinct difference yet one comes from the other.
In Isaiah 42:1 I agree with you that this is referring to Jesus. But I would make a distinction between Jesus and the Christ, for the body of Christ which is yet to come will also be known as the “Christ” in my understanding (1 Cor 12:12). Jesus is the firstborn among many, He is the first to attain to the designation of the elect. Christ means Messiah, and scripture will use Jesus and Christ at different times in different context. Yes, Jesus is the Messiah, but He also has coming unto Him a group of elect who will be the body of Christ, and therefore they will also be known as the Christ, the body. Jesus will always be their head, the leader, but they will have the same anointing upon them which Jesus had at His first coming, in fact, even Jesus tells us that they will do greater things than He has done.
Ancient Israelites are known as the elect because the elect are the “called out ones.” They were called by God through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel. Thus Jacobs sons, the 12 tribes of Israel, are the called out ones of God. But why were they called out? They are not called out to become the only children of God, they are called out to lead the world to repentance and salvation, for through them will all the families of the earth be blessed (Genesis 12:3). It will be the job of the elect to bring blessings to all the earth. I will let you guess as to what the blessings might be.
The definition of CHURCH is also “the called out ones.” Thus the elect is not necessarily a physical church or denomination, it is the called out ones of God. We do not yet know who God has called out to be His elect, but we do see this calling out of the denominations in Revelation chapters 2 and 3. So the elect are also those who overcome.
But what is the church? I believe it starts with the true Israelites, the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel as Jesus calls them in Matthew 15:24. This is the physical Israel who migrated toward the Northwest to become the nations of Europe, with Great Britain and the United States of America being the sons of Joseph. However, and hear this clearly, just because we are the true nations of Israel here in the United States and Western Europe, this does not mean that we have it made automatically, for anyone can be grafted in and removed from this righteous branch. This is where we get the term spiritual Israel of which heavykevy alluded to. For there are those who understand that Israel still has prophecy to fulfill in the earth, they do not understand that physical Israel has been hidden from us until the appointed time, therefore they have substituted a spiritual Israel in its place.
NOTE 1:
There are those groups who feel that because they are the true Israel, that then they are the chosen ones of God (instead of Jews) and that they can do no wrong in God’s eyes. They have a belief in their superiority over all other races because of this truth. Many call these people the true identity group, or British Israel believers, or by any one of different names. Many within this group are very prejudice and have a race superiority mentality.
Even though I understand and believe in the true Israel knowledge (through study of scripture, history and archeology), I in no way believe that this group is in any way superior to any other group. I distance myself from them in this arrogant belief.
NOTE 2:
[[The tribes of Judah (Judah and Benjamin), the house of Judah, has fulfilled their calling in the earth, bringing forth the king in Jesus. Because they would not follow Jesus, God took away their name from them, the name Jew. In Romans 2:28-29 (KJV Please) we see that a true Jew is now one who follows after Jesus and is circumcised after the heart (Phil 3:3).
A true Jew is no longer associated with a bloodline, it is associated with a Christian belief system. Just as God changed the name of Abram to Abraham, and Jacob to Israel, He has also changed who is a real Jew. Therefore, those whom the denominations call the Jews are not Jews at all, and scripture now calls them the bad figs. The true Jews in prophecy are those who became Christians.
Therefore those who are in the current nation of Israel have usurped the name of Israel and have fooled the leaders of the denominations (except the Worldwide Church of God who understands this). About 95% of today’s Jews are Ashkenazi Jews who are Jews through conversion, not through bloodlines]].
Not all of the elect are the same.
What we need to understand is that there is a difference in God’s people, there is a hierarchy within God’s elect. This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15 starting in verse 38, but in verse 41 we see that there is different glories, for there is one glory to the sun (son), and another glory to the moon (the church), and another glory to the stars (the elect). Yet there is a difference in the glory between the stars. We can also see this in Matthew 13:8-23 and in Mark 4:20, that there is those who bring forth different levels of fruit, some 100 fold, some 60 fold, and some 30 fold.
This does not mean that those who have only brought forth 30 fold do not belong in the kingdom, it is just God’s way of telling us that there will be ranks, but all will be loved by God. Understand, that even those within the lower ranks will be a necessity for the whole body to function as a whole. For the body cannot work without all parts working together (1 Cor 12:20-25).
I believe that the elect will come out of the denominational system. This is the birthing of the man child (Rev 12:5), the manifestations of the sons of God (Romans 8:19). As much as I put down the denominations as non-truth institutions, there is a place for them. These denominations have a purpose upon the earth and that is to bring forth the elect, the sons of God.
I believe that the people within the denominations, the believers, will be saved, but this does not make them an elect. The elect are those who will be called out to become the kings and priest of all the earth under the leadership of Jesus, the head. This is the group who Paul is preaching to, those whom will become the elect. For Paul wanted nothing to do with those who would believe, but would not follow the calling of the spirit. In fact Paul would turn these people over to satan for more instruction (1 Timothy 1:20).
Shirley,
Upon reading your response to heavykevy I pray for your blessings, I pray that God will show you the truth of scripture (as I do with all on this board). I believe that you can now see what I mean when I say that we all have been blinded to the truth. You yourself say that you read something and missed what was being said. This is true of all of us, do not think that you are alone. This is God blinding us to a simple understanding of His scripture. We are not allowed to understand scripture until the appointed time. And even though there are many who say that they understand it all, they lie to themselves.
This tells me that God is now working in you, He is now removing some of the blinders that you have had on. These blinders are not your fault, please please understand this. The blinders were applied by God. This time in your life will not be fun, I can attest to that, but when you come out the other side you will have a much greater understanding of scripture than you have ever had. Remember, that scripture promises us that every one of us will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).
To challenge your doctrines is a good thing, for how would anyone know that they are not true unless they are challenged. If a doctrine which you challenge is true, then your research of it will prove it to be true. But if your doctrine is false, the only way to discover it’s falseness is to challenge it, and this is not always easy.
I would mirror heavykevy on finding a better church. My preference is that you come out all together and study outside of the influence of the denominational system. But of course this is your call, and coming out from under a denomination can be a scary thing for those who have grown up in one.
Blessings
I believe that there are two groups who are the elect. The first group is the ancient Israelites who were called out of Egypt. This is the first group called out by God. The second group is the body of Christ. In my mind there is a distinct difference yet one comes from the other.
In Isaiah 42:1 I agree with you that this is referring to Jesus. But I would make a distinction between Jesus and the Christ, for the body of Christ which is yet to come will also be known as the “Christ” in my understanding (1 Cor 12:12). Jesus is the firstborn among many, He is the first to attain to the designation of the elect. Christ means Messiah, and scripture will use Jesus and Christ at different times in different context. Yes, Jesus is the Messiah, but He also has coming unto Him a group of elect who will be the body of Christ, and therefore they will also be known as the Christ, the body. Jesus will always be their head, the leader, but they will have the same anointing upon them which Jesus had at His first coming, in fact, even Jesus tells us that they will do greater things than He has done.
Ancient Israelites are known as the elect because the elect are the “called out ones.” They were called by God through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel. Thus Jacobs sons, the 12 tribes of Israel, are the called out ones of God. But why were they called out? They are not called out to become the only children of God, they are called out to lead the world to repentance and salvation, for through them will all the families of the earth be blessed (Genesis 12:3). It will be the job of the elect to bring blessings to all the earth. I will let you guess as to what the blessings might be.
The definition of CHURCH is also “the called out ones.” Thus the elect is not necessarily a physical church or denomination, it is the called out ones of God. We do not yet know who God has called out to be His elect, but we do see this calling out of the denominations in Revelation chapters 2 and 3. So the elect are also those who overcome.
But what is the church? I believe it starts with the true Israelites, the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel as Jesus calls them in Matthew 15:24. This is the physical Israel who migrated toward the Northwest to become the nations of Europe, with Great Britain and the United States of America being the sons of Joseph. However, and hear this clearly, just because we are the true nations of Israel here in the United States and Western Europe, this does not mean that we have it made automatically, for anyone can be grafted in and removed from this righteous branch. This is where we get the term spiritual Israel of which heavykevy alluded to. For there are those who understand that Israel still has prophecy to fulfill in the earth, they do not understand that physical Israel has been hidden from us until the appointed time, therefore they have substituted a spiritual Israel in its place.
NOTE 1:
There are those groups who feel that because they are the true Israel, that then they are the chosen ones of God (instead of Jews) and that they can do no wrong in God’s eyes. They have a belief in their superiority over all other races because of this truth. Many call these people the true identity group, or British Israel believers, or by any one of different names. Many within this group are very prejudice and have a race superiority mentality.
Even though I understand and believe in the true Israel knowledge (through study of scripture, history and archeology), I in no way believe that this group is in any way superior to any other group. I distance myself from them in this arrogant belief.
NOTE 2:
[[The tribes of Judah (Judah and Benjamin), the house of Judah, has fulfilled their calling in the earth, bringing forth the king in Jesus. Because they would not follow Jesus, God took away their name from them, the name Jew. In Romans 2:28-29 (KJV Please) we see that a true Jew is now one who follows after Jesus and is circumcised after the heart (Phil 3:3).
A true Jew is no longer associated with a bloodline, it is associated with a Christian belief system. Just as God changed the name of Abram to Abraham, and Jacob to Israel, He has also changed who is a real Jew. Therefore, those whom the denominations call the Jews are not Jews at all, and scripture now calls them the bad figs. The true Jews in prophecy are those who became Christians.
Therefore those who are in the current nation of Israel have usurped the name of Israel and have fooled the leaders of the denominations (except the Worldwide Church of God who understands this). About 95% of today’s Jews are Ashkenazi Jews who are Jews through conversion, not through bloodlines]].
Not all of the elect are the same.
What we need to understand is that there is a difference in God’s people, there is a hierarchy within God’s elect. This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15 starting in verse 38, but in verse 41 we see that there is different glories, for there is one glory to the sun (son), and another glory to the moon (the church), and another glory to the stars (the elect). Yet there is a difference in the glory between the stars. We can also see this in Matthew 13:8-23 and in Mark 4:20, that there is those who bring forth different levels of fruit, some 100 fold, some 60 fold, and some 30 fold.
This does not mean that those who have only brought forth 30 fold do not belong in the kingdom, it is just God’s way of telling us that there will be ranks, but all will be loved by God. Understand, that even those within the lower ranks will be a necessity for the whole body to function as a whole. For the body cannot work without all parts working together (1 Cor 12:20-25).
I believe that the elect will come out of the denominational system. This is the birthing of the man child (Rev 12:5), the manifestations of the sons of God (Romans 8:19). As much as I put down the denominations as non-truth institutions, there is a place for them. These denominations have a purpose upon the earth and that is to bring forth the elect, the sons of God.
I believe that the people within the denominations, the believers, will be saved, but this does not make them an elect. The elect are those who will be called out to become the kings and priest of all the earth under the leadership of Jesus, the head. This is the group who Paul is preaching to, those whom will become the elect. For Paul wanted nothing to do with those who would believe, but would not follow the calling of the spirit. In fact Paul would turn these people over to satan for more instruction (1 Timothy 1:20).
Shirley,
Upon reading your response to heavykevy I pray for your blessings, I pray that God will show you the truth of scripture (as I do with all on this board). I believe that you can now see what I mean when I say that we all have been blinded to the truth. You yourself say that you read something and missed what was being said. This is true of all of us, do not think that you are alone. This is God blinding us to a simple understanding of His scripture. We are not allowed to understand scripture until the appointed time. And even though there are many who say that they understand it all, they lie to themselves.
This tells me that God is now working in you, He is now removing some of the blinders that you have had on. These blinders are not your fault, please please understand this. The blinders were applied by God. This time in your life will not be fun, I can attest to that, but when you come out the other side you will have a much greater understanding of scripture than you have ever had. Remember, that scripture promises us that every one of us will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).
To challenge your doctrines is a good thing, for how would anyone know that they are not true unless they are challenged. If a doctrine which you challenge is true, then your research of it will prove it to be true. But if your doctrine is false, the only way to discover it’s falseness is to challenge it, and this is not always easy.
I would mirror heavykevy on finding a better church. My preference is that you come out all together and study outside of the influence of the denominational system. But of course this is your call, and coming out from under a denomination can be a scary thing for those who have grown up in one.
Blessings
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